Matthew Andreasen

tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11205719983307211962012-01-28T19:09:43.411-07:00Matthew AndreasenThe purpose of this Blog (at least for now) is to collect various points of view about Agency and Agents, especially as used within the LDS church, and the related subject of Satan's proposal which would have destroyed Agency. I think there's more to Agency than simply our freedom to choose (although that's certainly related) and more to Satan's proposal than merely forcing everyone to do what's right, therefore, I am mainly interested in ideas which go beyond those traditional concepts.Matthew Andreasenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03850471572025730012noreply@blogger.comBlogger51100tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1120571998330721196.post-1024053094909058432011-09-11T16:00:00.000-06:002011-09-20T21:35:41.340-06:00Contact Me<span style="font-size:120%;color:#333399;">Need to leave me a message or get my attention?<br />Leave a comment here.</span><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/1120571998330721196-102405309490905843?l=matthewandreasen.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Matthew Andreasenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03850471572025730012noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1120571998330721196.post-34427763497963108612011-09-11T15:00:00.000-06:002011-09-20T21:30:46.959-06:00Discuss your views of Agents or Agency<span style="font-size:120%;color:#333399;">Share or discuss your views of Agents/Agency as used within the LDS church or its scriptures.</span><br /><br />[I am mainly interested in points of view which are different from or go beyond the traditional idea of freedom to choose/free will (although those ideas are certainly related).]<div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/1120571998330721196-3442776349796310861?l=matthewandreasen.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Matthew Andreasenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03850471572025730012noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1120571998330721196.post-21195378038636392222011-09-11T14:00:00.000-06:002011-09-20T21:30:17.060-06:00Discuss your views of Satan's possible proposal<span style="font-size:120%;color:#333399;">Share or discuss your views of what Satan may have been proposing as a means to 'save' all mankind.</span><br /><br />[I am mainly interested in points of view which are different from or go beyond the traditional idea of forcing everyone to do what's right or forcing them to be righteous.]<div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/1120571998330721196-2119537803863639222?l=matthewandreasen.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Matthew Andreasenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03850471572025730012noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1120571998330721196.post-35510771687913487282011-09-11T13:00:00.013-06:002012-01-21T12:15:54.390-07:00Links to other sites which have interesting discussions/comments about Agency and/or Satan's proposal<div id="TopicButton"><input onclick="return openTopic()" value="Expand Topic" type="button"></div><div style="DISPLAY: none" id="Topic">If you have your own thoughts on Agency or Satan's proposal, please add a comment to one of the above posts. I would like to hear your views prior to your looking at these other sites so your views are fresh and untainted by others' ideas.<br /><br />If you know of additional web sites or blogs that discuss Agency or Satan's proposal in an interesting way, please leave a comment here (a link to the other site along with any commentary of your own would be great). I will leave your original comment, and if I find the link interesting, I will add it to my list below.<br /><br />The following are sites where I have either commented or found others who had interesting comments:<br /><br /><span style="font-size:100%;color:#333399;">Expand or Contract all sections below </span><input onclick="expandAll()" value=" + " type="button"><input onclick="contractAll()" value=" - " type="button"><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;color:#333399;"><strong>Newest added links (New links appear here for about a month before being moved below)</strong></span><br /><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.0')" value="+/-" type="button"><div id="ID.0"><ul><strong>[To be added under: Discussions about Agency and/or Satan's plan [Other Forums]]</strong><br /><br /><a href="http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?148985-quot-Agency-quot-Is-this-distinctly-an-LDS-concept">theologyweb » "Agency" Is this distinctly an LDS concept? » Webster, JB, Cow Poke, Sparko</a><br />Interesting discussion about the LDS idea of agency, the meaning of agency from the dictionary, free agency from a historical Christian perspective, and the free agency of sports. See comments #3, #5, #7, #8, #9, #12, #35. Webster left comments at #23, #36, #38. (Last: #39)<br />(Added: Jan 12, 2012)<br /><br /><strong>[To be added under: Other discussions in which I have commented]</strong><br /><br /><a href="http://study-and-faith.blogspot.com/2011/12/asa-shinn-on-agency.html">Study and Faith » Asa Shinn on Agency » Me, JB</a><br />[Link doesn't seem to work. Find it manually.]<br />Continued from the theologyweb discussion. JB provides examples from the writings of Asa Shinn. I think that Shinn followed the conventional meaning of agency in his writings, not the common Mormon definition. (Last: #3)<br />(Added: Jan 12, 2012)</ul><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.0')" value="-" type="button"></div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;color:#333399;"><strong>Discussions about Agency [ldsphilosopher]</strong></span><br /><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.1')" value="+/-" type="button"> <div style="DISPLAY: none" id="ID.1"><ul><a href="http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=233" target="_blank">LDS Philosopher » Astronauts without Planets » Me, Michael Wheeler</a><br />This is the fourth in a four part series which is interesting in its own right. I joined the discussion to add my views/insights about Agency. This is the most I have commented about various aspects of Agency at one site. Also, look for interesting comments by Michael Wheeler, as well as others. (Last: #54, Sep 3rd, 2009)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=231" target="_blank">LDS Philosopher » A Gift that Was Never Given? » Me</a><br />This is the third in a four part series which is interesting in its own right. I mainly addressed the problem of Agency being 'given' to men even though it was possessed before we came to earth. I offered a possible solution to this problem (Last: #19, Sept 30th, 2008)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=218" target="_blank">LDS Philosopher » Pruning the Branch We're Standing On » Me</a><br />Here I asked how the word Agency was being used by a few of the participants. I was hoping to draw out more information if possible. (Last: #15, Oct 15th, 2008)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=170" target="_blank">LDS Philospoher » Law and Moral Agency » Me</a><br />Original post has several good points. Last paragraph says that Satan may have planned to remove accountability by removing Law. I suggest that he may have been trying to prevent us from gaining a Knowledge of good and evil, thereby allowing us to remain unaccountable and innocent. (Last: #10, Feb 24th, 2011)</ul><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.1')" value="-" type="button"></div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;color:#333399;"><strong>Discussions about Agency [Small and Simple, A Latter-day Voice]</strong></span><br /><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.2')" value="+/-" type="button"> <div style="DISPLAY: none" id="ID.2"><ul><a href="http://smallsimple.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/free-agency-vs-moral-agency/" target="_blank">Small and Simple » Free Agency vs. Moral Agency » Me, Paul</a><br />Good discussion about the terms Agency, Free Agency, and Moral Agency. Some early comments get stuck in the philosophy trap. I left quite a bit of information about some of my views, Paul had some interesting things to say, and others had a few good points as well. (Last: #35, May 15, 2011)<br /><br /><a href="http://alatterdayvoice.blogspot.com/2010/07/on-agency.html" target="_blank">A Latter-day Voice » On Agency » Me, Paul</a><br />Paul makes several good points as he defines agency. He uses a definition that's more in line with the dictionary than most members, but also uses the LDS idea that agency equates to choosing. I left two questions, one of which was never answered. (Last: #4, July 24, 2010)<br /><br /><a href="http://alatterdayvoice.blogspot.com/2010/07/addendum-on-agency.html" target="_blank">A Latter-day Voice » An Addendum on Agency » Me, Paul</a><br />Paul adds that agency is not the same as political freedom, noting that some in the church have made that connection at times. I agree. (Last: #5, July 26, 2010)</ul><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.2')" value="-" type="button"></div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;color:#333399;"><strong>Agency and Satan's Plan [bycommonconsent]</strong></span><br /><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.3')" value="+/-" type="button"> <div style="DISPLAY: none" id="ID.3"><ul><a href="http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2009/02/mormonisms-satan-and-the-tree-of-life-part-31-redeem-all/" target="_blank">By Common Consent » Mormonism's Satan and the Tree of Life: Part 3.1 ("Redeem All") » Me, Adam E.</a><br />Discussions revolve around the idea that Satan's plan was to Redeem everyone regardless. Comments also address the meaning of agency, free will, whether they're the same or not, and how it all fits togather. I jumped in a little late (comment 40) for this conversation. (Last: #42)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2009/02/mormonisms-satan-and-the-tree-of-life-part-32-agency/" target="_blank">By Common Consent » Mormonism's Satan and the Tree of Life: Part 3.2 ("Agency") » Me, Mark D.</a><br />Very good discussion on the meaning of Agency from several points of view. Several participants and I agree for the most part, even though we have various, yet compatible, ways to describe it. Very interesting ideas, comments, and points of view. (Last: #27)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2009/02/mormonisms-satan-and-the-tree-of-life-part-33-body/" target="_blank">By Common Consent » Mormonism's Satan and the Tree of Life: Part 3.3 ("Body")</a><br />Agency is brought up a few times here, but I didn't add anything myself. (Last: #15)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2009/02/mormonisms-satan-and-the-tree-of-life-part-4-the-garden" target="_blank">By Common Consent » Mormonism's Satan and the Tree of Life: Part 4 ("The Garden") » Me</a><br />My comments appear in 2 and 10. In Comment 10 I repeated a comment I made earlier to answer a question. (Last: #10)</ul><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.3')" value="-" type="button"></div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;color:#333399;"><strong>Discussions about Agency and/or Satan's plan [LDS.net]</strong></span><br /><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.4')" value="+/-" type="button"> <div style="DISPLAY: none" id="ID.4"><ul><a href="http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/17921-agency-more-info-please.html" target="_blank">LDS.net » Agency: More Info Please! » Webster, Just_A_Guy, Justice</a><br />Webster created this discussion about the meaning/definition of Agency. Justice (#18) and Webster have a fairly interesting discussion about the idea of Dominion and Agency. Webster tries to bring in the definition of Agency from the dictionary. Just_A_Guy (#34) brings in the idea of the Legal definition of Agents and Agency, and has some interesting discussion with Webster. (Last: #60)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/18903-question-about-satans-plan.html" target="_blank">LDS.net » A question about Satan's plan » Webster, Giant_Son, Godless, Just_A_Guy, JohnnyRudick, Justice</a><br />Webster created this discussion about what Satan's proposal may have been and included a poll. Giant_Son (#5), Godless (#17), Just_A_Guy (#37), JohnnyRudick (#51-52) [clarified by Webster in #53], and Gillebre (#160) all initiate some interesting discussion. Justice (#103) finally comes up with his idea, which he relentlessly pursues, even though it's problematic in so many ways, IMO. Conversation drags at times, but Webster has a few additional good points. (Last: #170)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/34069-agency.html" target="_blank">LDS.net » Agency » Webster, Traveler</a><br />Justice created this discussion about the meaning of Agency. Traveler (#17,20) references the idea of legal agency and its meaning. Webster (#11,18,34) has some interesting comments. Justice (#38,...) seems to be trying to get others to accept his idea about Satan's plan and wanders off the topic of agency. Justice (#13) tells Webster (#11,#45) he'll talk about D&C 64:18, but never does. (Last: #166)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/34311-agency-laws.html" target="_blank">LDS.net » Agency and Laws » Webster, Just_A_Guy, Threepercent</a><br />Discussion about whether the law can affect man's agency. Threepercent (#9) ties agency to stewardship. Webster (#10,13,21,24,37) adds his thoughts on agency. Just_A_Guy (#11,14) agrees with Webster that agency describes the principal/agent relationship (even though Webster never said that at that time). (Last: #41)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.christianforums.com/t7536238-7/" target="_blank">Christian Forums » LDS Free Agency » Skylark1, alfonsobonetti, TasteForTruth</a><br />Example where a non-Mormon is trying to understand what Mormons mean by agency, and the resulting confusion. In #64, 67, and 69 the non-Mormon poses some interesting questions, while in #65, 72, and 73 two Mormons offer muddled or odd responses. The non-Mormon in #75 looks like they knew our doctrine better than our guys did. (Last: #89)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/55041-free-agency/" target="_blank">Mormon Dialogue » Free Agency</a><br />This is another place that repeated the mistaken idea that the Methodists saw agency as their ability to do the right. See also "Juvenile Instructor » mormonism and agency a historical query". (Last: #21)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/54012-free-agency/page__st__20" target="_blank">Mormon Dialogue » Free Agency » Webster, AmorLibertas, Brade</a><br />The ideas of "free agency" and "agency" are examined as part of this discussion. Brade comments that free agency is a philosophical idea (#10, #18). The legal concept of agents and agency is then brought in (#20, #24, #29) mainly in the sense of becoming an agent of Christ or Satan. Webster takes that opportunity to share a few of his thoughts (#31, #38). (Last: #43)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/55135-altering-moses-to-understand-agency/" target="_blank">Mormon Dialogue » Altering Moses To Understand "Agency" » Webster, Rob Osborn, Ahab</a><br />Webster leaves several of his ideas about Agents and Agency, but Rob didn't seem to get his point (he's too busy altering the meaning of Agency in Moses). Ahab has an interesting comment in #38 and takes on Rob after Webster gave up. (Last: #56)</ul><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.4')" value="-" type="button"></div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;color:#333399;"><strong>Discussions about Agency and/or Satan's plan [Other Forums]</strong></span><br /><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.4.5')" value="+/-" type="button"> <div style="DISPLAY: none" id="ID.4.5"><ul><a href="http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/52628-what-was-satans-plans-at-the-council/" target="_blank">Mormon Apologetics & Discussion Board » What was Satan's Plan at the Council? » Webster, Gillebre, cinepro</a><br />Gillebre (#4) reiterates his idea (also seen on LDS.net). cinepro (#15) thinks Satan only sought to destroy agency AFTER his initial plan was rejected. Webster leaves his view as well (#23). (Last: #68)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?t=37056&postcount=8" target="_blank">CougarUteForum.com » Agency » Webster, UtahDan</a><br />Discussion involving the topic of Agency. SeattleUte says LDS people use Agency differently from the rest of the world (#14). UtahDan says it has more to do with consequences than simply being free to choose (#20). Webster and UtahDan have a conversion about the meaning of Agency (#28,29,30,31,33). (Last: #36)</ul><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.4.5')" value="-" type="button"></div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;color:#333399;"><strong>Definition of Agency/Moral Agency [Richard's Ramblings]</strong></span><br /><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.5')" value="+/-" type="button"> <div style="DISPLAY: none" id="ID.5"><ul><a href="http://familyblog.pyrblu.com/?p=3" target="_blank">Richard's Ramblings » Power and Gift of Agency</a><br />Contains a few interesting comparisons to Agency as defined and used legally, but then wanders into other areas. For instance, the idea of being an agent of Christ gets confused with scriptural agency (i.e., being an agent unto oneself). Other principles, such as the Light of Christ and righteouseness, also get confused with agency. The idea that agency is the "power to act righteously" is introduced. (Last: #1)<br /><br /><a href="http://familyblog.pyrblu.com/?p=151" target="_blank">Richard's Ramblings » The Definition of Agency » Me</a><br />More of the same from his previous post, mainly following Joseph Fielding McConkie's [new] definition of Moral Agency. I discuss the idea of a "pure definition of agency", the evolution of the definition used historically within the church, and the problems associated with accepting yet another new definition of Agency. (Last: #4)<br /><br /><a href="http://familyblog.pyrblu.com/?p=156" target="_blank">Richard's Ramblings » Agency Part 2</a><br />More of the same. The current definition of a Free Agent as used in professional sports (again, a new definition which was not around in the 1800s) is used to try to buttress the argument for Joseph Fielding McConkie's [new] definition of Agency. (Last: #0)</ul><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.5')" value="-" type="button"></div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;color:#333399;"><strong>Satan's Plan and the meaning of Agency<br />& "Satan's War on <del>Free</del> Agency"</strong></span><br /><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.6')" value="+/-" type="button"> <div style="DISPLAY: none" id="ID.6"><ul><a href="http://smallsimple.blogspot.com/2005/12/just-what-was-satans-plan-anyway.html" target="_blank">Small and Simple » Just What Was Satan's Plan Anyway? » Last Lemming</a><br />Interesting discussion about what Satan may have been proposing as his plan. Some participants begin talking about the idea that Agency may be more related to accountability than simply free choice, and that Satan's plan may have been a "no accountability" plan rather than a "force" plan. The book, "Satan's War on <del>Free</del> Agency" by Greg Wright is brought up as part of the discussion. (Last: #13, 03/24/2006)<br /><br /><a href="http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=29528486&blogID=189103119" target="_blank">MySpace Blogs » The Truth about the War In Heaven</a><br />This person writes some of his own views along with a lot of information which comes from the book, "Satan's War on <del>Free</del> Agency" by Greg Wright.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2210558813&topic=14131" target="_blank">Facebook: (The LDS Left) » Satan's Plan</a><br />A Facebook discussion about the book, "Satan's War on <del>Free</del> Agency." (Last: #13)<br /><br /><a href="http://deseretbook.com/item/4709451/Satan_s_War_on_Free_Agency" target="_blank">"Satan's War on <del>Free</del> Agency" - Deseret Book</a><br /><a href="http://www.confettibooks.com/?page=shop/flypage&wt=1.00&product_id=144246&CLSN_706=12613011807066e104f8725e640cbe56" target="_blank">"Satan's War on <del>Free</del> Agency" - Confetti Books</a><br />These are a couple of links showing the book cover and a short description. I have since bought the book and read it. I find it really quite interesting. Although I differ on some of the ways the author arrives at his points, I generally find it very well done and thought out.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=2123#comment-564143" target="_blank">Feminist Mormon Housewives » Make Some Room! » Me, Sam Sneed</a><br />Comment 69 caught my attention, (I think Sam has read Greg Wright's book). I liked much of what Sam said, and tried to talk with him about it. He never returned to the conversation, but I left my views about Agency which backed up his original comment. I also left some additional information. (Last: #82)</ul><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.6')" value="-" type="button"></div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;color:#333399;"><strong>Satan's Plan according to Adam E.</strong></span><br /><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.7')" value="+/-" type="button"> <div style="DISPLAY: none" id="ID.7"><ul><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2009/01/30/i-would-make-a-lousy-god/#comment-55658" target="_blank">Mormon Matters » I Would Make a Lousy God » Adam E.</a><br />Comment #2 caught my attention. In it, Adam E. says that he doesn't think Satan's plan was to force us to choose good and left a link to a document he wrote which detailed his view on Satan's plan [see "Adam E. (document)" link below]. (Last: #18/19)<br /><br /><a href="http://acellsworth.blogspot.com/2009/01/satans-plan-of-salvation.html" target="_blank">The Corner Office » Satan's Plan of Salvation</a><br />This is a blog by Adam E. which contains a shortened version of the document which he wrote [see "Adam E. (document)" link below]. (Last: #7, Jan 21, 2009)<br /><br /><a href="http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dd9fzdth_28228tg6g4" target="_blank">Adam E. (document) » Satan's Plan for Salvation</a><br />This is the full document that Adam E. referred to in the preceding two links. His view is mainly that Satan would 'save' everyone by destroying the law, consequences, and spiritual suffering for sin. Satan offered to be the savior and save all mankind regardless (he would suffer for and forgive all). Generally well thought out.</ul><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.7')" value="-" type="button"></div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;color:#333399;"><strong>Other discussions in which I have commented</strong></span><br /><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.8')" value="+/-" type="button"> <div style="DISPLAY: none" id="ID.8"><ul><a href="http://daveloveless.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/personal-responsibility-and-free-agency/" target="_blank">The Prodigal » Personal Responsibility and Free Agency » Me</a><br />In this blog the writer talks about the idea of responsibility and free agency. I added my two cents worth focusing on the idea that our Agency is absolutely required by His plan and is what allows us (through our accountability) to make the ultimate choice: Eternal life or death. (Last: #4, Nov 10th, 2008)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.larrybarkdull.com/462/zion-and-greater-commandments#comment-567" target="_blank">Larry Barkdull » Zion and Greater Commandments » Me</a><br />In this blog the writer says that light is synonymous with intelligence and agency (among other things). I question his assertion and, using a correct definition of agency referred to by the writer in a previous blog, try to show why I believe that agency is a quality of intelligence and not synonymous with it. (Last: #4)<br /><br /><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/16/agency-and-the-plan/" target="_blank">Mormon Matters » Agency and the Plan of Salvation » Me, Rob Osborn, Last Lemming, MisterCurie</a><br />Some interesting comments about what Satan's plan may have entailed. See especially #17, #21, #22, #46, #47. (Last: #51/52)<br /><br /><a href="http://feastuponthewordblog.org/2010/02/07/rsmp-lesson-3-jesus-christ-our-chosen-leader-and-savior/#comment-30303" target="_blank">Feast Upon the Word » RS/MP Lesson 3: "Jesus Christ, Our Chosen Leader and Savior" » Me</a><br />In this post, Nathan G. asked some very good questions about Satan's plan and the idea of Agency which I decided to answer in comment #9. (Last: #16/24)<br /><br /><a href="http://feastuponthewordblog.org/2010/02/08/rsmp-lesson-4-freedom-to-choose-gospel-principles-manual/" target="_blank">Feast Upon the Word » RS/MP Lesson 4: "Freedom to Choose" » Me, Rob Osborn</a><br />Blog makes a few good points about Agency then heads off in a completely different direction. I left my view on Agency (#2) and asked Rob Osborn a question about his (#3, also #9). I also replied to comment #15. (Last: #25/35)<br /><br /><a href="http://samlundstrom.blogspot.com/2010/01/encore-law-and-morality-part-ii.html" target="_blank">Deomocracy in America» Encore! Law and Morality Part II » Me </a><br />Sam mentioned that Satan may have wanted to take away consequences, not force us to be good, so I began a conversation to see what he believed about that. I pointed out a few things, but no one seemed to follow my hint. (Last: #28)<br /><br /><a href="http://singngcaligurl.blogspot.com/2010/01/misconceptions-about-satans-plan.html" target="_blank">singngcaligurl » Misconceptions about Satan's Plan » Me</a><br />This blog makes a couple of good points: Satan's plan was to remove accountability, not force us to be good, and Agency allows us to choose an outcome based on our actions. I left two comments. (Last: #2)<br /><br /><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/18/the-power-of-choice/" target="_blank">Mormon Matters » The Power of Choice » Me, Nick Literski</a><br />A few interesting bits about agency (#8 and #2). Comment #3 seems to have missed that "free agency" was very common within the church. Comment #5 expresses a mistaken view about the origin of the term "free agency" which I think many believe. I added a question (#43) and a comment (#56) to try to stir up more information, but nothing much came of it. (Last: #73)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nauvoo.com/ubb/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=29;t=000139" target="_blank">The Nauvoo Forum » Figuring out Free Agency » MDS, Me</a><br />Discussion about the meaning of "agency" and "free agency" based on an article by Brother Orson Scott Card. MDS (an attorney) brings in the idea of agents and principals. I left comments about the agent/principal connection to theological agency, contrasted the idea of free agency in sports with the scriptural concept, mentioned the confusion brought in by philosophical free agency, and talked about the historical use of the two terms within the church. (Last: #19, Aug. 14, 2010)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.deseretnews.com/user/comments/700058150/Orson-Scott-Card-The-limits-on-free-agency.html" target="_blank">Deseret News » The Limits on Free Agency » Me</a><br />Comments about Agency. Common Sense had a few interesting points. I M LDS 2 suggested that we listen only to people with philosophical training to understand agency. I left a comment in response, saying that we should look to the dictionary to understand the meaning of Agency and gave a brief description of my views. (Last: #17, Aug. 21, 2010)<br /><br /><a href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/10/02/saturday-pm-general-conference-the-hanging-by-a-thread-thread/#comment-201268" target="_blank">By Common Consent » Saturday PM General Conference » Seth R., Me</a><br />An open forum for comments during the second session of conference Oct, 2010. The Agency related comments occurred during Elder Hales' talk on Agency. Seth R. (#37) said, "I think it’s primarily a legal term derived from British Common Law." I said (#257) I agreed with Seth and added some more information. (Last: #257)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.utahsrepublic.org/education/agency-doing-the-lords-work-in-the-lords-way/" target="_blank">Utah's Republic » Agency: Doing the Lord’s work in the Lord’s way » Oak Norton, Me</a><br />Original Post uses the dictionary idea to say that man is an agent for God and should act morally, but misses the implications behind the idea that man is an agent unto himself. I added a comment (#4) about my view. (Last: #9, 10/11/2010)<br /><br /><a href="http://mormonmysticism.blogspot.com/2010/10/agency-and-choice.html" target="_blank">MormonMysticism » Agency and Choice » David Littlefield, Me</a><br />David talks about being an agent of a covenant and describes what he means by that. David and I discuss his idea a little. (Last: #27, Nov. 18, 2010)<br /><br /><a href="http://ldsliberty.org/exercising-agency/#comment-4114" target="_blank">LDS Liberty » Exercising Agency » Me</a><br />A post about the idea of exercising agency. It mentioned different definitions and nuances, so I left a comment (#3) sharing my idea. (Last: #3, Oct. 20, 2010)<br /><br /><a href="http://miraclesandoddities.blogspot.com/2011/02/agency-and-agent.html" target="_blank">Miracles and Oddities » Agency and Agent » Me</a><br />First paragraph sounded a little interesting. I left a comment, but nothing came of it. (Last: #1)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/mormonism-and-agency-a-historical-query" target="_blank">Juvenile Instructor » mormonism and agency a historical query » Me</a><br />I left comments about the historical usage of Agency (#10 and #13), but it seems this post is more about the Sociological meaning of agency. Unfortunately, there are a number of instances where these two very different types of agency get muddled together. <a href="http://matthewandreasen.blogspot.com/2011/09/following-is-what-i-submitted-several.html" target="_blank">Here</a> is an additional comment of mine that never got published. (Last: #29)<br /><br /><a href="http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AsVzyt6A8li2d0eobpM0TfLd7BR.;_ylv=3?qid=20110828171029AATuxEW&show=1#yan-answers" target="_blank">Yahoo Answers » LDS Mormons: How would Lucifer have taken our agency? » Me</a><br />I left my answer by describing what agency is, and how it's removal might allow Lucifer to claim that none would be lost. See also, Elsie, Something peculiar..., and slcbtf. (Last: Closed Topic)</ul><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.8')" value="-" type="button"></div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;color:#333399;"><strong>Other interesting discussions/sites</strong></span><br /><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.9')" value="+/-" type="button"> <div style="DISPLAY: none" id="ID.9"><ul><a href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/the-law-of-agency/" target="_blank">Times and Seasons » (The Law of) Agency</a><br />Gordon Smith, a Business instructor of some kind, applies the business concepts of Principals, Agents, and the Law of Agency to the gospel. He doesn't apply it to personal agency however (which is too bad), but rather to the idea of becoming an agent for God in doing His will. Comment #5 is interesting as well, although, it also brushes past the connection to personal agency without exploring it in more detail. (Last: #6)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/in-opposition-to-evil#comment-54513" target="_blank">Connor's Conundrums » In Opposition to Evil » Jeff T., Curtis</a><br />A fairly good discussion revolving around the idea of Agency. See particularly Comments 4, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 14, 15, and 16. Comment 14 is especially interesting as it alludes to the legal idea of Agency (Principal, Agents, and the legal relationship they have), but the idea of being an Agent of your <u>former</u> spirit self is a bit odd. I hope he just misunderstood his Bishop. (Last: #17)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.larrybarkdull.com/153/embracing-the-law-of-consecration" target="_blank">Larry Barkdull » Embracing the Law of Consecration</a><br />While explaining the foundational principles upon which consecration rests, Larry Barkdull defines Agency in terms consistent with dictionary definitions while still managing to tie in the more traditional ideas associated with Agency in the LDS church (i.e., choice, freedom, and the limiting of agency through sin). (Last: #2)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=206" target="_blank">Nine Moons » Free Agency isn't Free & I've Lost All My Future Choices » Silus Grok, Last Lemming</a><br /><a href="http://www.nine-moons.com/2005/12/13/free-agency-isnt-free-ive-lost-all-my-future-choices/" target="_blank">[old link]</a><br />Interesting philosophical discussion. Comment 1 (Silus Grok) uses Agency and Agent following the dictionary. Comment 6 (Last Lemming) plays on the idea of being a free agent until baptism. (Last: #15)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=274" target="_blank">Nine Moons » Devils and their agency » Last Lemming, Mark Butler</a><br /><a href="http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/06/13/devils-and-their-agency/" target="_blank">[old link]</a><br />Many comments about the meaning of Agency. See particularly Comments 1, 3, 10, 14, 16, 17, 18, 21, and 23. Comment 21 caught my attention. In it, Mark Butler tries to draw a distinction between Agency and Free Will. (Last: #24)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=476" target="_blank">Nine Moons » Quit Telling [Me] I Shouldn't Call it "Free Agency"</a><br /><a href="http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/03/18/quit-telling-i-shouldnt-call-it-free-agency/" target="_blank">[old link]</a><br />Discussion about the meaning of "free agency". Comments about its possible redundancy, its historical use and nature, and the merits or problems associated with the term. (Last: #47)<br /><br /><a href="http://mormoninquiry.typepad.com/mormon_inquiry/2006/02/whatever_happen.html" target="_blank">Dave's Mormon Inquiry » Whatever Happened to Free Agency?</a><br />Discussion on the term "free agency", why it was changed, and various ideas on what it means. Some lamenting, some interpreting, some defending. (Last: Feb 15, 2006; Closed)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2004/03/liberty-agency-you-tell-me/" target="_blank">By Common Consent » Liberty? Agency? You tell me » Steve E., Nate W.</a><br />Discussion mainly involving the difference between Agency and Liberty. Steve Evans tries to distinguish between the two, especially as they are used in political discussions. Nate W. in Comment #27 wonders if Satan's plan to destroy agency was to nullify consequence and save all in their sins. (Last: #28)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nauvoo.com/ubb/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=000110#000001" target="_blank">The Nauvoo Forum » We all face translation problems » Me</a><br />I commented about the misunderstood meaning of the word Intelligence, and showed that it actually comes from the dictionary after all. (Last: #5, Jan 28, 2010)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/29537-word-usage-modern-scripture.html" target="_blank">LDS.net » Word usage in Modern Scripture » Webster</a><br />Webster tries to stir up a discussion about word usage in LDS scripture. Along the way he talks about the German translation of Agency. Interestingly, no one points out that the meaning of Agency as used in the LDS church does not match the dictionary's definition. (Last: #22)<br /><br /><a href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.nine-moons.com/2010/01/14/the-problem-is-choice/" target="_blank">Nine Moons » The Problem is Choice [Google cached copy]</a><br /><a href="http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1020" target="_blank">[Original missing because of a problem - read about it here]</a><br /><a href="http://www.nine-moons.com/2010/01/14/the-problem-is-choice/" target="_blank">[old link]</a><br />Various viewpoints about the meaning of Agency. Slightly interesting. (Last: #15)<br /><br /><a href="http://somemormonstuff.blogspot.com/2009/12/doctrine-of-agency.html" target="_blank">Some Mormon Stuff » Doctrine of Agency » Me</a><br />This follows the normal LDS thinking about Agency. I left a question, but never got a real answer. (Last: #4)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.deseretnews.com/mobile/user/comments/700070702/Elder-M-Russell-Ballard-O-that-cunning-plan-of-the-evil-one.html" target="_blank">Deseret News » Elder M. Russell Ballard: 'O that cunning plan of the evil one' » Me</a><br />A reporter misquoted what Elder Ballard said. I provided the correct quote, and predicted that the dictionary did not really say what Elder Ballard's words made it sound like it said. (Last: #3)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.reference.com/browse/Free+Agency" target="_blank">Reference.com » Free Agency</a><br />An incredibly odd definition of the LDS term Free Agency. It says that Free Agency is the right to choose the right, and Agency is the right to choose between 'right' and 'wrong'. The link to "free agency" does not seem to work. I wonder where this information originally came from.<br /><br /><a href="http://cymple.info/agency.htm" target="_blank">Covenant Yeshua Messiah » Personal Agency</a><br />An interesting view on Agency. Paragraph 4: An agent is to represent the true will of God. Paragraph 8: "[B]eing an agent unto oneself, is being given the stewardship over oneself to act in behalf of God for one's best eternal interest or for God's interest in us."<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ldsgospeldoctrine.net/bwc/bwc-dc-44.pdf" target="_blank">ldsgospeldoctrine.net » D&C Lesson 44 » Brad W. Constantine</a><br />Notes for a Gospel Doctrine class. Brad says that as an agent unto yourself you have the power of self-action and then refers to the 1828 Dictionary definition stating that it has no connection to choosing or the freedom of choice, but he doesn't go further. (This lesson was probably given after my email to him 6/28/2009.)<br /><br /><a href="http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-1298-9,00.html" target="_blank">Conference, Oct. 2010 » Agency: Essential to the Plan of Life » Elder Robert D. Hales</a><br />Opening two paragraphs demonstrate that our traditional LDS definition of Agency is not understood by non-members and does not appear in the dictionary.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O88-agency.html" target="_blank">A Dictionary of Sociology</a><br />Interesting definition from Sociology. Agency is opposed to structure, and implies, "the capacity for willed (voluntary) action." Agency seems to refer to an individual's personal and uncontrolled actions, while structure is the expectations and rules placed on the individual by society and other external entities. This is a newer and highly specialized definition of agency.<br /><br /><a href="http://ldsliberty.org/have-you-lost-your-priesthood/#comment-1698" target="_blank">LDS Liberty » Have You Lost Your Priesthood? » Rodney</a><br />Rodney's point #1 has several things that are similar to my beliefs: Satan's plan was not necessarily one of force, destroying agency not the same as compulsion, removing knowledge may lead to unaccountability, and Satan's plan may have been to withhold accountability. (Last: #27, Sept 23, 2010)<br /><br /><a href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/10/notes-on-the-saturday-afternoon-session/#comment-318952" target="_blank">Times and Seasons » Notes on the Saturday Afternoon Session » Mark D.</a><br />Post mentions that Elder Hales couldn't find our definition of Agency in the dictionary. Mark D. (#4) ties agency to the Arminian/Calvinist debate, saying that's, "almost certainly where we imported the term from." He also indicates that agency involves more accountability and less license than philosophy's "free agency". (I agree) (Last: #4)<br /><br /><a href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2011/01/21/axiom-of-choice/" target="_blank">By Common Consent » Axiom of Choice » WVS</a><br />Interesting: "Granting agency is a big theme in Mormonism. But it seems unlikely that this term, used in this way, is equivalent to free will. As Truman Madsen said once, free will is the driver, agency is the car." (Last: #33)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/37208-possession-exorcism.html#post566722" target="_blank">LDS.net » Possession/Exorcism » Traveler, slamjet</a><br />Traveler (#38) uses the idea that an agent represents someone else, saying that the choice in agency is who we will represent. Slamjet (#39) denies that's what it means, saying it's a philosophical term. (Last: #59)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.mormonterms.com/index.php?title=Agency" target="_blank">Mormon Terms » Agency</a><br />A wiki site defining Mormon terms. It may be interesting to see what is said here.<br /><br /><a href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2011/04/forms-of-agency/" target="_blank">Times and Seasons » Forms of Agency » Chuck Whicker</a><br />Comment 46 is about the only interesting thing. In it Chuck says he believes that Lucifer sought to destroy agency by taking away consequences. (Last: #46)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/review-journal-of-mormon-history-372-spring-2011-part-1/" target="_blank">Juvenile Instructor » Review: Journal of Mormon History 37:2</a><br />Example of the sociological concept of agency and structure. #6, 2nd paragraph thinks it's useful to add additional meaning to the Mormon word "agency". I strongly, strongly disagree. (Last: #9)<br /><br /><a href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2011/07/01/the-agency-of-man/" target="_blank">Common Consent » The Agency of Man</a><br />Original post mentions, "The other kind of agency," referring to the secondary, legal definition, but (unfortunately) never ties it to the doctrinal usage. (Last: #30)</ul><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.9')" value="-" type="button"></div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;color:#333399;"><strong>Other topics I've commented on</strong></span><br /><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.10')" value="+/-" type="button"> <div style="DISPLAY: none" id="ID.10"><ul><a href="http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=3318" target="_blank">LDS Philospoher » The Three Pillars of Eternity</a><br />I left comments about some places where the Creation, Fall, and Atonement are found in the Book of Mormon, and mentioned my three pillars: Justice, Agency, and Mercy. (Last: #3, Dec 18th, 2010)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=3397" target="_blank">LDS Philospoher » Updating the Chapter Headings in the Book of Mormon</a><br />I left comments about Mahonri in the Book of Mormon's pronunciation guide, and examples of chiasmus in several of the chapter headings. (Last: #18, Mar 26th, 2011)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=3229" target="_blank">LDS Philospoher » Falling Forward</a><br />I left comments about Eden being Terrestrial and that was probably the best Satan could have offered under his proposal, and also the idea that the Atonement makes all 3 levels available. (Last: #9, Mar 10th, 2011)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=3305" target="_blank">LDS Philospoher » What I Thought I Knew about Spiritual Death</a><br />I left my basic understanding of what Spiritual Death is. (Last: #12, Mar 14th, 2011)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=3558" target="_blank">LDS Philospoher » Two Kinds of Spiritual Death</a><br />I left comments about Nathan's idea of being cut off Temporally and Spiritually from the presence of God (2 types of Spiritual Death). (Last: #10, Apr 28th, 2011)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=3807" target="_blank">LDS Philospoher » Evaluating Common Explanations</a><br />I pointed out that just like us, Adam does not pay for his transgression in the garden of Eden either, and I shared a quote from Elder Orson Pratt. (Last: #6, Mar 7th, 2011)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=4163" target="_blank">LDS Philospoher » Spiritual Death Quiz</a><br />I answered the quiz, plus left a comment. My answers compared to others' are shown. (Last: #2, Mar 13th, 2011; Total Voters: 14 on first quiz)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=3952" target="_blank">LDS Philospoher » Spiritual Death Quiz: My Answers</a><br />I left a comment pointing out a discrepancy with the quiz/answers. (Last: #3, Mar 21st, 2011)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/19010-eve-wise-beguiled-point.html#post340349" target="_blank">LDS.net » Was Eve wise or beguiled? » Webster</a><br />Webster added his response in #5 (Last: #31)</ul><input onclick="return toggleMe('ID.10')" value="-" type="button"></div><br /><br /><span style="font-size:100%;color:#333399;">Expand or Contract all sections above </span><input onclick="expandAll()" value=" + " type="button"> <input onclick="contractAll()" value=" - " type="button"></div><br /><br /><script type="text/javascript">function toggleMe(a){ var e=document.getElementById(a); if(!e)return true; if(e.style.display=="none"){ e.style.display="block" } else{ e.style.display="none" } return true; } function expandMe(a){ document.getElementById(a).style.display="block"; } function contractMe(a){ e=document.getElementById(a).style.display="none"; } function expandAll(){ expandMe('ID.0'); expandMe('ID.1'); expandMe('ID.2'); expandMe('ID.3'); expandMe('ID.4'); expandMe('ID.4.5'); expandMe('ID.5'); expandMe('ID.6'); expandMe('ID.7'); expandMe('ID.8'); expandMe('ID.9'); expandMe('ID.10'); } function contractAll(){ contractMe('ID.0'); contractMe('ID.1'); contractMe('ID.2'); contractMe('ID.3'); contractMe('ID.4'); contractMe('ID.4.5'); contractMe('ID.5'); contractMe('ID.6'); contractMe('ID.7'); contractMe('ID.8'); contractMe('ID.9'); contractMe('ID.10'); } function openTopic(){ contractMe('TopicButton'); expandMe('Topic'); }</script><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/1120571998330721196-3551077168791348728?l=matthewandreasen.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Matthew Andreasenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03850471572025730012noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1120571998330721196.post-84751354514403664802011-05-19T12:00:00.000-06:002011-09-20T21:28:22.511-06:00[The following is what I submitted several times to the <a href="http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/mormonism-and-agency-a-historical-query">Juvenile Instructor » mormonism and agency a historical query</a> blog<br />the evening of May 19, 2011. For whatever reason, my comments were not getting through (was I being blocked?). It would have appeared between comments 22 and 23:]<br /><br />Chris/Ben:<br /><br />I knew you were talking about "agency" from the fairly new Brekus/Dictionary of Sociology point of view (agency v. structure, yadda yadda yadda). . . .<br /><br />However, since the post started with a scripture (which obviously wouldn't use the modern historical/sociological definition of agency), and the closing paragraph where the question was located referred to the <i>historical</i> way Mormons have been using "agency" for the last 180+ years, I thought you might be asking a question about linguistic usage. I didn't expect you to apply the evolving, modern, specialized concept of sociological "agency" to historical Mormonism where that concept was likely not even on the radar.<br /><br />For the record, I saw the middle paragraphs about historical/sociological "agency" as an example of the concept of agency changing over time. I thought you might have been using that as a sort of analogy to the fluctuating definition of agency within LDS thought. This is the first time I've come across your website. I assumed its audience consisted of Mormons in general, but now I'm thinking it might be targeted toward a narrower, more focused sliver of that population.<br /><br />Anyway, I apparently missed the intent of the original post/question.<div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/1120571998330721196-8475135451440366480?l=matthewandreasen.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Matthew Andreasenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03850471572025730012noreply@blogger.com